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 Ven's "Stuff to look at + MP Costs!"

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Matt Eria

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PostSubject: Ven's "Stuff to look at + MP Costs!"   Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:26 am

I have divided it as best I can by section.

Character Guidebook

EXP/Lvl - I don't know, same as always, this doesn't sit right with me. Like I've expressed before, these are -massive- jumps after a certain level. While I know you expressed that EXP gains should be focused mostly on quests and the like - you've restricted the number of quests to 3 in a 7 day period. While I'm here to write - I'm not here to write novels for minor payoffs, and by forcing me to not write my own quests / etc, it puts a very real cap on the amount of EXP you can feasibly gain.

I can write 5k words a day. 10k or more on the weekends. That's… nothing by comparison to our leveling system. If it were simply the difference between levels, - I.e., 0 - 500 = 500, then 500 - 1000 = 500, it'd be more forgiving, and makes it seem like levels are more attainable.

Instead of resetting the counter to 0, make the gaps between levels a little bit bigger, and just do the EXP from one to the next. IMO - that's the easiest way, and again, makes the game a little more reasonable. Especially considering the stat gains being minimal between levels? Make those levels achievable. As is, I'll be -really- surprised if anyone makes it to 20 in several months time.


CA creation definitions: Make sure it's listed here that Cas cost 15% more for mages under the combat abilities. Make sure that you add the gil requirements for leveling up CA's as well, - right now it doesn't list anything. Tentatively, it's 1000 / 2000, but there's no concrete answer. Further, leveling CA's has no comparison to leveling magic - 1000+100 for each level 2, or whatever.
CA Definitions, part 2: As an aside, I hate the damage numbers listed there. Please make sure that you indicate that creativity can make this different, that the listed things are suggestions - a hard-and-fast glance. We reward creativity here, as indicated by the damage output ( or lack thereof ) for a lot of our abilities. Provided they have tradeoffs and all, it should be viewed as such.

Weapon Leveling System: Please clarify this. It says 'stat points', but that's a misnomer, since you can apply them to any of  your stats, your MP / HP, adding to direct damage or direct defense.

Magic and Summoning

GFs/Eidolons: Not usable in PVP? I don't get it, especially considering the pretty hefty wind-up time / cost to use them. Just a clarification would be a little helpful.

Status Chance: Now that we have a dice system, can we run through here and add chances to inflict status? ( Burn / Freeze / Etc, Stun, etc. )

Gil Cost: I understand the costs, though I would like to point out - since there's no real 'customization' to spells ( they do what they do, no ifs ands or buts ), can we maybe review gil costs for these?

Battle System

Speed: If this has nothing to do with Dodge, can we remove 'dodge' from the description? Determines who goes first / how damage is applied / how many actions one gets should be there.

Slow + Freeze: Can a character who is affected by 'freeze' also be affected by 'slow' to get a completely stunned effect?

Blind: Please add Blind to this - do they roll a die to connect? =x!


General

  • Updates section needs to be ONE section, and there should be a given time for when updates are processed. Obviously RL can interfere with this, but it would go a long way to making a more uniformed update system?

  • Quests should not be limited except by a desire to do them, and that they only be done once per character - IF they are repeatable quests. If they aren't, then those shouldn't be added to the 'Quest' board, but the 'Event' board, where you can have sign-ups. That way we don't have to worry about cluttering the quest board with "I'm taking this!" posts. Further - more quests and / or a quicker refresh rate. ( I know you're short on quests right now, and I'll be pitching some soon. ) Side note: Pitched quests should not be held away from their creator. They get no 'benefit' to having created it, since these are typically non-DM'd quests.

  • Senate should be either locked to specific members and thus unreadable, or ANYONE should be allowed to post here - so that people don't get upset by others voicing their opinion. I'm a fan of transparency, but I can also understand why in the future you might not want the newbie chiming in over things they have no idea about.

  • We need to get things taken care of sooner, rather than later, so we can start advertising for real. Not that I don't love our current players, but new blood would be nice - and before the rest of the players get up to ridiculous levels.


=x So yeah, those are all things off the top of my head. I tried not to repeat anything that's already been mentioned ( weapon / damage output, MP Costs / regen, etc. )

Characters needing MP costs

Matt Eria

  • Pray


Squall Leonhart

  • Will Break - Pending Approval


Mark Illyria

  • Sky Slash
  • Prayer
  • Major Arcana VIII: Fortitude


K138Y

  • Knowledge Implant ( Level 1 / 2 ) - This is part of the old Perk system - should be changed.
  • The Sheep


Arianna Milatovich

  • Cyber Eye - Dodging is not part of the system
  • Critical Strike - Not sure if this is just a passive 200 or not, but it has no MP cost.
  • Still has perk list


Arcturus Bedlam

  • Solar Shroud
  • Nova Assimilation
  • still has Perks


Asher Gheri

  • Teleportation: Has 10 as listed, but I believe I put that there.
  • Protomanifest: Undeath


Zolanius Thyre

  • Raven Shade: Conjure


Rena Cleareyes

  • Elemental Mastery rank 1


Lorenzo von Matterhorn

  • Manafall
  • Purify
  • Radiating Light


Midnight Therel

  • Speed Demon
  • Critical Strike
  • Sinful Counter has an MP cost, but is based on a dodge
  • Dark Venom has an mp cost, but it is based on Sinful Counter
  • Judgement Counter has an MP cost, but it is based on a dodge
  • Dark Venom's Will  - see dark venom


No Name

  • Empty Sky Form: Void Advance


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Lorenzo



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PostSubject: Re: Ven's "Stuff to look at + MP Costs!"   Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:35 am

Well, my thoughts on the level system is set up the way it is intentionally. As it stands, it takes almost nothing to get to level 5, or maybe even 10 or 15, depending on how active and how many quests a character does... but anything beyond that has a massive jump in exp costs. It's that way on purpose, because of the potential for new members. You said that you would be surprised if any of us got to level 20 in a few months time... implying you feel as though it SHOULD only be a few months (or less) to get level 20... but I disagree.

JE1 was active for six years, or longer, I forget exact dates. That's YEARS. If we used a system that allows someone to get through 20 levels in a few months, like you suggest, then you can max out a character in a year or two. And, once a character is maxed out, some people may lose interest in using them. Some people, like myself, mal, probably you as well, and maybe ruien, would stick around anyway, for the sake of story. But a lot of people would get bored and leave, once they reached a certain level. And we don't want that.

Also, imagine a year from now, a new member coming on. With your suggestion, everyone on the site currently would be levels 60-75... not a very friendly environment for a level 1. But with the current system, we'll be closer to 25-30. And within two months, the new member would be at level 10 or so themselves. And like that, the other members of the site don't seem so far out of reach after all.

You also mentioned that each level comes with a small increase in stats, but that is just not true. By level 26, you'll have maxed out your HP or MP. By level 36, you'll have maxed out both. Some characters in the actual games don't even break HP limit at level 100. Now, the stats themselves might not be as relevant as they could be, with how they're all divided by 10 during calculation, but that has nothing to do with the rate at which the stats increase, which is absolutely fine the way it is.

I agree, CA upgrade costs absolutely need to be defined, since right now, they aren't listed at all. I do NOT think, however, we need to worry about tweaking the numbers listed. The page clearly states that those numbers are just suggestions, in regards to damaging attacks. It's obvious from reading that they don't necessarily apply when dealing with abilities that have other special effects.

Also, weapons page, that's just semantics. Needs to be reworded, yes, but not necessarily re-worked any. We've already discussed it in another page.

As for GFs/Eidolons not being usable in PvP, the reason as far as I can gather is that they are simply too powerful. K was level 2 or level 4, I forget which, when she got Cactuar, a summon that can OHKO everyone on the site except Rena and Asher. Yes, at the moment, more or less any character can one turn kill any other character, but still no need to make it any easier on them, you know? Though, that's an OoC explanation. It would be nice to see an in-character reasoning for why we can't do it.

As for status changes, I dunno... I don't think we should rely too much on the dice. There's nothing wrong with using the dice for some of the status effects, but most aren't even chance based, their spells are guaranteed hits. Only ones that aren't, at the moment, are Instant Death (which we do have a dice roll for), and burn/freeze/stun, which I personally feel we shouldn't even use on the site, since they are based on status effects in Kingdom Hearts, not in any actual FF game.

Blind, yeah, something we need to add. Not sure how to work it into a system that doesn't (currently) have dodging at all, though.

yeah, updates seem to be in like two different threads right now, an update section, as well as people still posting as replies to their original bios. We should definitely decide which to use. I also think that only one of the admins should be doing all of the updates, for the sake of consistency. It wouldn't do to have one admin approve an ability, and then have another admin deny a similar ability in another character.

As for the limits on the quests, well that's directly linked to the amount of EXP a player gets, and I already explained why I don't think that needs changing. So, just re-read what I put up in my first point, I guess.

Also, the Senate... Mal said to me that anyone can post in the Senate, it is just that only the four of us get to actually "vote" on the matters we discuss. Which is completely irrelevant, since mal's vote is worth a hundred of ours anyway. But, essentially, anyone CAN post in the Senate, but only the councilmen are expected to. As I understand it.

And, final point, I absolutely agree, we need to get all the minor tweaks fixed ASAP, and start advertising.
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Matt Eria

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PostSubject: Re: Ven's "Stuff to look at + MP Costs!"   Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:58 am

Leveling - We'll probably continue disagreeing on the level thing. I just want it looked at, so I put it here.

Hopefuly, a year from now, a new member would have a bunch of OTHER characters to work with, too, and can be reasonably impressed and want to shoot for a goal of reaching us. Contrarily, if someone joins in a year, and we're only 20? How depressing is that? People here  since the game began are at level 25-30 - AND they had a head start? Measuring a character hitting cap level in a couple of years is NOT a bad thing. xD

CA Number thing specifically states:
- The CA tree must retain a similar theme.Ex) A level 1 sword attack can’t be purely magic at level 2
- As with all CA’s you must keep within the damage levels for suggestion
- Additional effects do not carry over from one level to the next unless stated
- Your level will reflect whether or not the CA is accepted, low level characters (under 10) should not be running around with high damage attacks.

The damage for CA’s from min to max are listed below. Ensure that your suggestion is somewhere in between.

Soooo, no, it's not really all that obvious that it's "suggested" since it specifically says it has to be there. xD

Weapons page being semantics - yeah, that's pretty much what I said. To clarify, not to adjust.

GFs / Eidolons - Meh, I don't buy "too powerful" when we can do that damage in a turn. The eidolons / GFs mostly seem to be flavorish.

Spells that have "chance:"
Fire - Burn
Blizzard - Freeze
Lightning - Stun
Water - Silence
Aero - chance to damage party
Death - though it doesn't actually say chance in the "death" spell description
Dark - Blind, Slow, Silence.

Even if you don't know whether they should be used, since they're currently listed, I left them as things that needed to be addressed.

Limits - Yeah, still not buying it. If I bust my ass, I should be rewarded, not punished. Same goes for anyone. There shouldn't be a "cap" as to what can be earned. If I'm willing and able to do more than the next guy… then I should be able to. So should anyone else.

This isn't Candy Crush - I shouldn't have to wait to play once I've used all my lives ( Quests ).

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Lorenzo



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PostSubject: Re: Ven's "Stuff to look at + MP Costs!"   Sun Nov 24, 2013 6:14 am

quest limits... You forget that, until recently, all quests were unrepeatable. By "working harder than the next guy" you are essentially preventing the next guy from getting any quests at all. Now that quests aren't necessarily unrepeatable, we still have the concern of capping exp growth. I feel the cap should absolutely be in place, for reasons I've already listed.

CA damage... Also, I seem to have misunderstood your meaning with the CAs. You seem to be concerned with there being a suggested damage number at all, and feel that CA's should be capable of doing any amount of damage, so long as the trade off is fair. Well, I disagree. Reason being that what constitutes as "fair trade off" is far too vague, and variable. Hell, some people on JE1 legitimately thought that making an ability "usable once per thread" is an automatic pass for just about anything. We need some guideline in place for what's okay and what's not. And that's what the suggested damage number is for.

GFs/Eidolons... don't a few of them deal an automatic 9999? Cactuar's 1000 damage is actually one of the weakest. I wouldn't mind if we did start allowing GFs and Eidolons in PvP,but I would expect us to have to totally revamp the summons page if we did that.
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Matt Eria

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PostSubject: Re: Ven's "Stuff to look at + MP Costs!"   Sun Nov 24, 2013 6:38 am

-Shrug- Like I said, we'll disagree on that point. But no one would play an mmo that they can only play once a day. Sure, while I'm not just here to quest, it's nice to have that option when I'm caught up on my threads and waiting days for replies.

CA Damage - The suggested damage number is rigid, and doesn't really apply all that often. "Fair trade off" is where Mal comes in - I'll point out my requested Charge attack - it doesn't have a bonus damage at all. Does that mean I can't have it, because I don't have a minimum of 50?

What's more, if there's a hard cap of x, who wouldn't choose that number as the number for their ability? It's the best possible number... =x

I never suggested anything be done as far as an infinite damage ability. Just that it be acknowledged that the ranges are SUGGESTIONS, and not the -hard cap- that they appear to be. Obviously a rank one CA isn't going to be 2000 damage, even if 'once a thread' is a trade off. ( I'll point out that most of those abilities got shut down. People can pitch whatever they want. Getting it is on Mal. xD ) I just want it to be evident that if you're creative, you can do interesting things. -Shrug.- Not be boxed in by numbers.

GF/Eidolons - I don't think so, but I'm not 100% sure.

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Lorenzo



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PostSubject: Re: Ven's "Stuff to look at + MP Costs!"   Sun Nov 24, 2013 6:51 am

Oh, I just double-checked, and yes, GFs and Eidolons are between 500-3000 damage, which is manageable in PvP for characters above level 20-25. On JE2, they were between 1000-7000, with one at 9999.
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MAL
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PostSubject: Re: Ven's "Stuff to look at + MP Costs!"   Sun Nov 24, 2013 10:17 am

Just so I can create my tick list.

Weapon Clarification: Done
Speed: Modified Speed to include new Dodge system, yay for dice rolling.
Status Effects:Updated
Quests: Those on the adventurer life path now have no limit to the number of side quests they can do per week (as it is their main job).
Sub-Boards: They are added

PS: Side note, GF's also block all damage dealt to the player during the wind up. Thus if used in PVP they could effectively make their user invulnerable for the entirety of their summon time.
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Maxxxxxy



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PostSubject: Re: Ven's "Stuff to look at + MP Costs!"   Sun Nov 24, 2013 12:18 pm

EXP/LV:
I'll have to take Xeko's side on the leveling. I don't mind the leveling system as it stands and rather enjoy seeing the max level as virtually unobtainable.

CA's:
The CA's section does need so aesthetic changes. But I think the dmg's should stay the same. I agree that they are clearly not stated as suggestions, but I think that as it stands the set damages are good.

Summons:
As pretty much the only summoner on site, there's Yuna but she comes and goes, I actually understand why certain summons can't be used in PVP. As Mal said the GF's health becomes my own so I basically double my health per thread or more per GF. Summons also don't count towards my CA limit or cost so I can understand limiting it.

Status chances:
I don't disagree with a dice system for statuses. But find it overly complicated. I'd rather that players just be forced to avoid any ability's that are determined by chance as a general rule. I'm aware that certain general spells are supposed to have a chance to cause certain statuses but I would rather not have to see dice rolled after every spell casters post. Plus the spell system already isn't perfect as an elemental damages system needs to be placed.

Gil Costs of Spells:
I think the costs are fine as they are. Unless you asking for them to be more expensive cause when I was looking them over I found them to be pretty cheap and was thinking of purchasing LV1 of every spell or 1&2 of most spells since I actually had the means to do so.

Freeze status:
I had actually already thought frozen status was the same as petrify. I would like to see this status changed up as well.

Updates Section:
Censorship prohibits me from talking about this.

Quests:
I think its unfair that people on the adventurer life path, which is basically the I want to remain unaffiliated and path, should get free reign on quests while everyone on a different path is limited. I can see why they would be allowed to do more since it is their job but there is nothing being made more available to players on other life paths. If perhaps something was developed, like a list of accomplishments in that Life Path, that could be the treated the same as quests that would be more balanced and fair.

Senate:
It has already been stated that everyone can participate but only senate members can vote. Personally I think the entire senate concept is garbage but there isn't much I can do about that. As it stands the rules on the senate seem just fine since anything I can change would be to abolish.

Advertising:
We already have a meaty member base. I'd rather see us keep going without advertising and just being a fairly filled out group without adding in every Joe and Jane that will join for one thread then leave.

K138Y's abilities:
Defending my own character here.
I already posted an update looking to exchange the perk abilities for a different ability, I'm not sure what this has to do with MP cost since your title of the section says that MP costs are being addressed. But I imagine its just a blanket covering for what abilities need fixing.

I see no reason why the sheep ability should cost MP. It has no combative use and is primarily been used for story development for the character. The one time I actively used it was the event and not much was accomplished by using it.

Zola's Abilities:
The Raven Shade Conjure should not have an MP cost. It is no different from a summon which has no MP cost. Adding an MP cost will make it possible to just summon the shade over and over again in a thread which is just insanity.

I'm not really familiar enough with anyone else abilities to comment on them further.
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Squall Leonhart

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PostSubject: Re: Ven's "Stuff to look at + MP Costs!"   Sun Nov 24, 2013 1:21 pm

I think you have pretty good points, though I agree with Lorenzo and Maxxy on the experience thing, I have no problems with how it is set up and I actually like seeing as the Max Level is unreachable, dunno for me it gives me a goal that looks far away xD.

I'm alright with making CA's a bit more aesthetically looking, so it's not so confusing, but I think the damage numbers are rather fine. Of course, creativity should be taken in consideration regardless, so I think that an Admin would be ok with an ability that is above those numbers but has understandable drawbacks.

For your character's points, the Critical Strike on Arianna and Shadow have no MP cost because it costed 0 MP to use, it was a Fruit of Science given to Arianna when she first started and that she could implement on people if she and whoever wanted it agreed.

And for Shadow, I'll need to talk with Mal about him, since he will need a complete rework since the Dodge system is random and well...all of his CA's are based on successful dodges.

I might just leave Shadow as is (a complete random character...lol)

Also, since Dodge is still in the system, the Critical Strike (+500 In dodge) and the Speed Freak ability don't need changing...I think.

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Class(s): Human/Knight   Level: 10
::=:: HP 1,825  ::=:: Strength: 1600 (+800 Weapon Damage) ::=:: MP 1,250 ::=:: Defense: 500 ::=:: Magic 500  ::=:: Speed:900 ::=:: Magic Defense 800 (+200 Magic Defense)
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Matt Eria

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PostSubject: Re: Ven's "Stuff to look at + MP Costs!"   Sun Nov 24, 2013 6:58 pm

Okay: there's no need to defend characters. I'm not calling anyone out - anything that looked like an "active ability" but had no mp cost got added to the list, mostly because I was asked specifically to do that. =x I'm not coming after anyone, I'm just not skimming.

Personally, I don't think there should be a limit to quests for anyone, but honestly, I'm kind of interested in making a point here. Has anyone -other- than me run in to this as an issue?

I.e... Has anyone other than me been put into a situation where you have to wait to do a side quest? I'm not sure. But if you -aren't- put in that situation, the only reason anyone would have anything against this is because there are other people who are more active, earning more for doing more.

Again. It is not right to tell me I'm not allowed to write in this writing game. Or trivializing the fact that I can, and do, write fast enough to do that.

Squall - my point is, as its currently written, there's no way a new player will know that they can make those kinds of trade offs. We know it because we've been doing it for ages. No one else will.

As for new players joining at all - yes, we should want more players. Five to ten players isn't enough, and when push comes to shove, we were all new at one point... And all stuck around.

At the time of writing, dodge wasn't in the system, so I added those things, squall.

Summoners aren't the only ones that can use gfs / eidolons. But after mal's explanation, I better understand why on the gfs.

I wasn't aware there had been a change to the senate - I just remember a bunch of "don't post here!" Replies and thought to address it.


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Arianna Milatovich



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PostSubject: Re: Ven's "Stuff to look at + MP Costs!"   Sun Nov 24, 2013 7:37 pm

-


Last edited by Arianna Milatovich on Sun Nov 24, 2013 7:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Maxxxxxy



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PostSubject: Re: Ven's "Stuff to look at + MP Costs!"   Sun Nov 24, 2013 7:38 pm

I don't think anyone is jumping to defend anything. I think its more of just shining light on the situations since we know more about them. I'm sorry if you felt like anything I said came off as defensive as it was not meant that way.

I have actually run into the quest issue. It actually was not until recently that we were allowed to do quests multiple times, I'll spare the details but I don't enjoy the decision mostly because it makes me feel like I'm playing an MMO where the quests don't really matter. It used to be that how quests were done could effect the site but now, with everyone doing the same quest, it doesn't make sense to have site effecting quests. On JE2 the system was that you could only take one quest until either A) everyone had done one. Or B) A certain amount of time, I think it was a week or a month, had passed during which quests hadn't been claimed and then you could do any of the left-over quests. I actually enjoyed this method.

On the previous system where quests could only be done once I think it made perfect sense to limit the number of quests people can do in a given time. You or I might be able to do 1-3 quests a day but not everyone can or has the time to do that. It wouldn't have been fair for us to sweep in and do all the quests before anyone else can even start one. But with quests being repeatable it makes perfect sense for all quests to be complete able by everyone.

But on the other hand of that, with the amount you write Ven, you are getting way ahead of everyone else time wise. This might not seem like a big deal but when everyone else has only had a week go by in the last month and you've traveled the world and probably had a month or more go buy it will cause timelines not to match up. I'd like to suggest that only X# of quests done by each of your characters be allowed to be cannon per month or cycle or whatever. This way you can do as many as you want but be limited to what is actually happening for the character. This is simply a suggestion.

I does however sound like your taking things a little out of context with your comment about not being allowed to write. No one is preventing you from writing by limiting quests. There is plenty to do, especially someone with so many characters like yourself, without doing quests. I can provide some examples of threads you could do if you would like.

As for the new players. I wasn't trying to say we shouldn't have new players, just that I don't want the site to be flooded with people who wont stay around the way advertising would bring. Site by site advertising is more of a plague on the RP system than anything else. I prefer to see recommendations from our already existing network of players. Which so far has kept us at a steady member build.

By "Summoner" I simply meant anyone who uses a summon, not the profession.




I would actually like to take a moment to suggest implementing something new to the quest system which would appease all of the issues that seem to be surfacing. I would like to propose that there be a regular update, lets say weekly/bi-weekly, of quests which have a limiter on how many a person can take and that can't be repeated. These would be quests that have the ability to affect the RP such as the Sabotage quest or the Deserters quests. The first, for example, was done by Eriol and Ky and the way it was done would have resulted in a higher watch at the Mako reactors as well as several members of the rebellion ending up in prison. The latter effects canon characters directly and having them saved/imprisoned a five times doesn't make sense. The second half of this proposal involves creating sets of quests that make sense to be repeated over and over. These could be broken up by region, group affiliation, life path, and class. (or any other grouping that can be thought up.) Examples of these quests:

Fiend Hunter
Description: Hunt down fiends causing trouble all over Spira.
Reward: 5Gil/100WC 100EXP/1000WC Up to 10,000 words per thread.

Bestpedia of Magic
Description: Use various spells on various enemies and turn your findings into 'Merlin' at the mages tower.
Reward: 5Gil/100WC 100EXP/1000WC Up to 10,000 words per thread.

So basically you can do as many threads, and nearly as long of threads, as you want. These are just some rough examples. The limit per thread prevents people from taking advantage of the system by posting 1,000,0000 count posts and basically make them god in a single move. Alternatively the rewards per each thread could be admin determined by posting it with your update. Admin pops in, skims the thread, checks the WC, gives you rewards. These mass quests could be done as many times as anyone wants and don't need to directly effect anything in the RP universe.
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Squall Leonhart

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PostSubject: Re: Ven's "Stuff to look at + MP Costs!"   Sun Nov 24, 2013 7:40 pm

I guess my only complain to the "No Limit on quests" thing is that it deals a lot with what someone might have going on in real life more than the game itself. For example, I do not have the time to do multiple quests in a week, not because I do not want to, but because my IRL responsibilities prevent me from it (Doing a Masters, having a Daughter/Wife, working, etc.). In this aspect, someone who only works, or only studies, might have an advantage over others. I did not bring this up, because well, it shouldn't really be taken into consideration, but when it starts becoming so much of a difference, it can take the wish of role playing away from certain people, I mean, what's the point if (if this was my case) I'm just going to be left behind just because person X has more free time to do side quests than me?

At the moment, I haven't brought it up, but I really don't like how many open threads multiple characters have, but this is not my call, and while I won't be complaining about it, it does discourages me from the RP Smile.

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Class(s): Human/Knight   Level: 10
::=:: HP 1,825  ::=:: Strength: 1600 (+800 Weapon Damage) ::=:: MP 1,250 ::=:: Defense: 500 ::=:: Magic 500  ::=:: Speed:900 ::=:: Magic Defense 800 (+200 Magic Defense)
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Lorenzo



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PostSubject: Re: Ven's "Stuff to look at + MP Costs!"   Sun Nov 24, 2013 10:48 pm

No, I agree with Squall whole-heartedly. On sites I have been on before, there were limits to not only how many quests, but how many threads in general, a player can be in. For exactly the reason Maxxy already brought up; timeline. Example; if we take the timeline from Lorenzo's perspective, it has been three days since Angel Fall, the thread where Asher first showed up in the world. Three days, to accommodate absolutely everything Asher has done on the whole site so far. If we look at it from K138Y's perspective, it's been closer to a week (I gather from her posts, maxxy can correct me if that's not right)... So, if Asher and Lorenzo were to have a thread together in the future, how would we explain it only being a week or two since they last met to Lorenzo, but much longer for Asher? By limiting what each character can do, we limit the differences in people's personal timelines.

Also, I have hit the limit on quests as well recently. I've been taking as many quests as possible to recoup from Lorenzo's level loss (still 6000 exp short of being back where I was), and to make the 10k gil needed for his Life Path (though I'm at like 8500 gil already for that). So, I have been doing three quests a week. But, even with the limit put on me, I am glad that it's there. Before, quests were not repeatable, and the limit of one per player was an absolute necessity. Now, it's just to keep people from powering up too quickly. You say this isn't candy crush and you shouldn't have to wait to write... except... it kinda IS like candy crush. We are not a PvP site, but we still have to compare characters to one another to establish a basis of what is fair and what is not, and to account for the possibility of future PvP. There is no avoiding the fact, characters will always be compared to one another. Look at it from another angle. "Why is it fair that this character gets X amount of xp and gil, when I only get Y amount? It's not my fault he gets more time on the computer than I do."
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Matt Eria

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PostSubject: Re: Ven's "Stuff to look at + MP Costs!"   Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:18 pm

Asher can teleport, so time for him is a little more flexible than for Lorenzo. Secondly, time is fluid in any game like this - generally, characters don't sit around and compare how many days there has been since their last meeting, and even if they were to do so, again, it's kind of a handwaving thing.

Personal timeline holds more sway than a group perspective, because we're all running individual stories.

Yes, they run in to each other at times, but again, time is relative to perspective. In the situation you present - if you want a thread with Asher that's two weeks out, I know where that is on Asher's timeline, and can go ahead and work from that point in time. Things that happen AFTER that event will have no bearing on that event - because it hasn't happened yet, from Asher's perspective. That way, the 'two weeks' has passed equivalently for both characters. Just because I have more threads than you doesn't mean it happens in the same period of time. =\

And unfortunately, 'limit' is not the same as 'eliminate' - if you want to go that far, then we need to set up a dating system, so that we can specifically state WHEN things happen on a timeline, and then the world is held to a very specific time frame. That way, EVERYONE knows what point in the timeline it is for each character, if they care that much. Forcing me to adhere to your standards of what is 'the right way' to RP isn't fair. ( Since that seems to be your focus. )

I agree with you on the sense that if all quests are nonrepeatable, then we have to limit it, because then it really WOULDN'T be fair for one character to take the opportunity from everyone else. But since they are, people shouldn't barred from doing them.

Sorry - fairness isn't warranted based on shackling people. If it is, shouldn't we automatically promote new characters to whatever is the median level for everyone? It's more fair that way. Or is it okay for you to be more powerful than that character because you've done more writing / work with them? We compare work done to each other, not respective character levels / ability. If I write three times as much as you, as a hard and fast rule of thumb? I should be three times as strong as you. ( Obviously that's just a relative figure since we have natural inhibitors, a la, larger gaps between levels, etc ) From another example: If I put in more time at a job, I will have more seniority. There's no way around that, and there shouldn't be.

Any RP is far closer to an MMO than Candy Crush - including this one. People who spend more time get better things ( gear, spells, quests ), until they hit max level, at which point they play endgame content ad nauseam.

From your same perspective, but at a 180: "Why is it fair for me to get held back because other people can't keep up? It's not my fault they're slower than I am."

I'm glad the cap is gone for Adventurers - that way, people who want to play as hard as I do have that option. If you think it's not fair - join that path, and do the same thing. It'd only be unfair if I was the only person allowed to do it. But that's not the case. You're choosing to follow a different path, with different rewards. Once you've fully maxed out your lifepath, you get more than enough gold a week to make the rest of us your bitch. xD


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Lorenzo



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PostSubject: Re: Ven's "Stuff to look at + MP Costs!"   Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:40 pm

Needs of the many vs needs of the few. If one person takes every quest every time, and levels up indefinitely, it is unfair for everyone else who simply cannot do the same, even if they wanted to. But if we restrict the speed at which a person can level up, it becomes unfair for only one person; the person who would be leveling up indefinitely to begin with. Also, as I mentioned with the exp/level system before, it costs very little to get up to level 10+, in essence we ARE boosting new characters to a median level for the sake of what is fair. True, level 10 isn't "median" exactly, but it's high enough to be of some use in combat even when compared to level 20, 30, 40. You were being sardonic when you asked that, but yes, in our own way, that is exactly what we're doing. Because that is more fair than the alternative of just having a linear progression for levels, and screwing over new people entirely. And really, it doesn't matter, because even without the weekly limit, you're still restricted by the number of quests put out each month. And that should NOT be increased any. I don't think we should focus the site entirely on quests; makes it hard to progress character's individual stories, and does little to advance the plot of the site as a whole.
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Squall Leonhart

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PostSubject: Re: Ven's "Stuff to look at + MP Costs!"   Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:48 pm

To be honest, in my opinion, Quests should for the most part be a secondary part of characters (hence, "side quests") and not the main way for someone to get rewards. As it stands, for those who take on every.single.available quest that has become the main way to progress their character, leaving the main stories to be a "Side show".

If the decision were up to me, most available "side quests" would be organization based and rather lengthy, and certainly not repeatable. But as it is, as I said in my post, it's just discouraging to see that because of time constraints me (and many others) will ultimately fall behind, just because we cannot spend more time on it, maybe it's fair, but it is also very discouraging Smile.

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::=:: HP 1,825  ::=:: Strength: 1600 (+800 Weapon Damage) ::=:: MP 1,250 ::=:: Defense: 500 ::=:: Magic 500  ::=:: Speed:900 ::=:: Magic Defense 800 (+200 Magic Defense)
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Matt Eria

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PostSubject: Re: Ven's "Stuff to look at + MP Costs!"   Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:57 pm

You're right - it is restricted to how many quests put out a month. And that's fine with me. If they only put out 3 quests a month, then yeah, I'd be stuck with it, but -that- wouldn't bother me. It's not a hard cap that only applies to one or two people. It would -suck,- don't get me wrong - I wouldn't be happy with that particular turn, but I couldn't really argue against it. Just grumble a lot. xD

I've already said, I don't want to focus the site on quests. But literally, for my hours? The option is: Do nothing, OR, set up a bunch of open threads that may or may not get picked up. Yes, I can ( and probably will at some time ) write up a large scale individual Sphere quests - but that's not the only thing I want to do.

It doesn't make it hard to progress individual stories - I'm caught up on all my threads. What the hell else am I supposed to do?

Yes, this is coming from a place of bias - I'm completely biased towards having a bunch of quests, so I have something to occupy my time when I have to sit and wait ages for responses from everyone else. I'm not pushing anyone else to go faster or anything like that - it's not fair to them. But at the same time... I do other things, too. I play games ( admittedly, not a lot of them ) or I do personal writing, or I study, or I'm at work.

But this is a nice thing to do, and quests are a great way to level. Yes, that's the focus and function of quests.

Either way - as it is, I have no current complaints, and don't really need to defend the situation any further. If Mal deems it necessary to put it back in, I won't like it, but I'll go with it.

Unfortunately, Squall, someone will always be discouraged with any system put in place. I feel like I'm being punished for having the time and ability to write up those quests. If it were all I was doing, then I'd agree on the main plot / side plot thing.

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