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Lorenzo



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PostSubject: Exp/Gil Related Abilities   Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:48 pm

So, I commented about a concern with Matt Eria, ven's new character, and it turned into a major argument (in the PM's, don't worry mal). Anyway, my issue is very straight forward, though ven doesn't agree. For those that don't know, Matt uses a dress sphere system, similar to FFX-2. By sacrificing a full turn, he can change classes in battle. He has several abilities (or is set up in a way that he will have several abilities) that are available only while in each of his separate classes. All of that is fine.

But, according to his "Junction Sphere System" ability, each of these class abilities will be counted separately when he's purchasing new CA's. This, is NOT fine. The difference in gil costs for a regular character, compared to this character, is IMMENSE. Sure, it's not much early on, when CA's cost like 500 gil, but when you have ten CA's, the difference is in the tens of thousands, and increases exponentially. 10 level 1 CA's would cost a normal player 27,500 exp. It would cost this character 4,500 (assuming each of those level 1 CA's were for a different class). The possible discount from this is OUTRAGEOUS. Now, I get the reasoning for it, he has to take a full turn, multiple times a battle, to swap and use other abilities/spells. But ultimately, that shouldn't effect exp and gil costs.

Nothing should really effect exp and gil costs. It would be like making a CA that grants double exp, or double gil gain from bosses or end of thread rewards. Which was one of the most frequently denied abilities on JE1, I believe... No ability is supposed to effect the exp or gil gain, so why should an ability effect the cost of abilities/levels purchased with exp or gil?

But, now I must apologize. I'm made even more upset by this topic by the discussion ven and I just had about it, so excuse the attitude. Unlike other threads in the Senate board, this has not been me stating my opinion and asking how the rest of you feel about it. Instead, I have just stated directly what is wrong, with no room for alternate opinions, and I am sorry. But, even so, this was something that has always been true. You just can't use your abilities to boost how quickly you get other abilities, that's cheating.

Ugh, but, as always, feel free to disagree with me... I just really don't see myself being swayed on this one.
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Maxxxxxy



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PostSubject: Re: Exp/Gil Related Abilities   Thu Nov 14, 2013 11:05 pm

I kinda feel like you are doing what Mal just said in the chat today about not attacking anyone's character. That is literally all this is. This isn't even a site issue that exists that your bringing up, its a potential issue that your getting personally heated about. This thread basically looks like you were unhappy with how your argument with Ven went and decided to take it public, decidedly in the senate boards since Mal with FLIP if you have this out on the chat. This currently non existent topic isn't even worth addressing since it DOES NOT YET EXIST. When it comes around to Ven attempting to do updates, Mal can decide how he feels about it then. Perhaps THEN it would be good to bring up here, but in the mean time this is a non-existent personal issue.

My suggestion is you take this thread down all together and try not to personally attack other peoples potential plans for their characters in the future.
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Lorenzo



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PostSubject: Re: Exp/Gil Related Abilities   Thu Nov 14, 2013 11:12 pm

Actually, my argument with ven went just fine. The issue is, the ability that gives Ven the power to do this is already approved. Meaning it officially IS an existing problem. Matt, the character OFFICIALLY gets up to 87.7% discount on abilities.
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Maxxxxxy



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PostSubject: Re: Exp/Gil Related Abilities   Thu Nov 14, 2013 11:39 pm

And yet you failed to mention the pre-existing approval in your opening statement. You were sure to mention however "I'm even more upset." "Excuse the attitude." "Turned into a major argument." Yep sure does sound like the an argument that was just fine to me.

And since you feel like pointing out that I'm "oh, so wrong" in PM's. Lets point out something you were wrong about, I'm sure you'll point out how I'm wrong again like usual but no one will be surprised by that. "No ability is supposed to effect the exp or gil gain" WRONG. Adventurer Life Path grants both additional Gil and Exp. So that is already part of the system.
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Asher Gheri

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PostSubject: Re: Exp/Gil Related Abilities   Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:20 am

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Class_Change

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Dressphere

Just to give you a frame of reference. My design for the Junction Sphere System is exactly that of the Dresspheres, with a few aesthetic modifications. Essentially, each Sphere is a class independent of the others. More or less, I am creating a 'New Character' with every individual Sphere. When looked at from that perspective, it REALLY isn't that bad. It's like that in several games where "Job Change / Class Change" is an available thing.

I made it less powerful than the Dressphere system because unlike the Dressphere change, time doesn't 'stop' when he changes - it requires him a full turn to do so. Not an action. A full turn.

Consider this: With EVERY Sphere change, everything about my character changes. Stats, skills, even HP / MP. Yes, it's the same as if I were playing 4, 5, however many characters in one... but that's the design function. You should not be looking at ALL of his abilities in concert with one another. They are different lines. The more Gil ( rather than EXP... ) I pump in to one Sphere, the more powerful that sphere gets.

If I try to be a super versatile character, with 9 different level 1 spheres, I'm paying the equivalent of 4500 gil. Yes, that's different from 9 level one abilities for a normal, non-changing character, but it's the same as if I were playing 9 different characters in a fight, and is treated as such. I have to "Tag Out" between every skill use, if I decide to use a different kind of attack.

Looking at it from a strict numbers game? Yeah, it looks kind of crazy. It looks like a massive discount. I don't see it as such.

As an aside: You yourself say that we can't use examples from the previous JE1/2 to set precedence for this game, since it's a different system, and the system has changed from one game to the next. So please don't pull other games into this. ( especially since there were PLENTY of characters with EXP modifying abilities in JE1. )

Further - accusing me of cheating ( even in the most roundabout way possible, that's what you've done ) is exactly what I was talking about when I told you I felt like this was a personal attack. =x The whole reason I got so upset in the first place was because I felt you were attacking me personally.

I'd be willing to tack something on - maybe expending some EXP to learn more abilities - half the Gil cost or something. An IC reason being that he has to 'get a deeper grasp' of the memories he's using. But literally, charging me as though they're all linked abilities is too much. Unlike every other character with "requirement" abilities, my system is the exact opposite of that. I ONLY have access to whatever my current junction is. Acting like that's not a MAJOR hindrance is not fair. I'm paying for the character versatility by removing his ability to act quickly.

Swaying you is not the issue here. Since you've brought it up, I merely have to show Mal that it's not a broken system. Considering Mal is not as 'absentminded' as you seem to think he is - constantly overlooking everything like you insinuate all the time - I don't think that'll be hard.

And as an aside: Thank you for chiming in, Maxxxxxy. I openly ask anyone who has an opinion on this issue to voice it.

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:¤:  HP: 2,150  :¤:  Strength: 1100 ( 775 ) :¤: MP: 1100 :¤: Defense: 800 :¤: Magic: 500 :¤: Speed: 1150 :¤: Magic Defense: 500

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Maxxxxxy



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PostSubject: Re: Exp/Gil Related Abilities   Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:40 am

XIII gives every character access to every class available. Even if you maxed out one of the professions the cost per segment in another profession did not increase. Mid battle all characters had access to the maneuver Paradigm Shift which would instantly change their class. Matt's system is absolutely game cannon.
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Lorenzo



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PostSubject: Re: Exp/Gil Related Abilities   Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:58 am

Well, maxxy, that is not, strictly true. You notice that each character had three classes they were good at, and the others cost INSANE amounts of Crystarium points to level up. If he picked one Dress sphere and got those skills for the discount he's looking at, and all other skills were at a 5x mark up, that'd be different. But by playing versatility, and claiming using a turn as a trade off, he's essentially getting up to a 90% discount on EVERYTHING. I don't care if it takes five turns to swap out, it's not worth a hundred thousand gil difference! Also, maxxy, I said you cannot have abilities that grant you quicker access to other abilities. Life paths are not abilities.
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Lorenzo



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PostSubject: Re: Exp/Gil Related Abilities   Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:05 am

No abilities that grant discounts for other abilities. Doesn't matter what the situation is, it is too easily abused, to unbalanced. That's my stance on the issue, and it's not changing. That used to be mal's stance too.
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Squall Leonhart

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PostSubject: Re: Exp/Gil Related Abilities   Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:15 am

I'll just make two points:

1) I understand what Xeko is saying, and I do not agree with him completely, but I don't disagree with him either. Since the character is accepted, I do think he is right about bringing it up if he thinks there's something wrong with it. As I understand it, it's certainly quite versatile. I wouldn't say it's OP or broken, because the wind up time for it to be so is quiet hefty, but even like that it is a bit too much in my opinion. I wouldn't mind if as Ven said, it costed him some EXP as well to upgrade or buy the CA's, or there was an increasing cost depending on X or Y.

2) I'll be honest here, but to me, it's obvious that there won't EVER be an unbiased discussion between Maxxy and Xeko (I would add Rena too, but thankfully, she hasn't chimed in here). Xeko brought up a concern he had on a character, however with an attitude, but it was STILL about the character. It's pretty obvious, since Maxxy's first two points deal almost exclusively with attacking Xeko.

One extra:
3) True about XIII, but it only gave access to 3 of those with the normal costs, the extra ones required a ridiculous amount of exp @_@.

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Class(s): Human/Knight   Level: 10
::=:: HP 1,825  ::=:: Strength: 1600 (+800 Weapon Damage) ::=:: MP 1,250 ::=:: Defense: 500 ::=:: Magic 500  ::=:: Speed:900 ::=:: Magic Defense 800 (+200 Magic Defense)
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Matt Eria

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PostSubject: Re: Exp/Gil Related Abilities   Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:20 am

Okay. You've presented your argument, and I've presented my defense. Now we leave it for Mal to decide. I gave an ( extra and unnecessary ) option, but as is, it has been approved, and I will continue to operate under the assumption that Mal is perfectly capable of reading the ability as he did, and is perfectly capable of accepting it as he did. Nowhere in the rules does it say you can't have those kinds of abilities, just like nowhere in the rules does it say you can't have a passive 10-15% mana regen, or an attack that deals 15% HP damage.

Look at it this way: Would you have a problem if it were literally a new character per Sphere? i.e., instead of Mark, I just had 9 "characters" that ran around together? I could buy their powers the SAME WAY, and have access to them the SAME WAY. The difference being, this way I get a standard '2' actions, instead of the 18 actions I'd get for doing something like that. =x

Thank you for voicing your opinion, Squall. Like I said, I'd be willing to ALSO sacrifice the ability to level as quickly as everyone else if I had to, but that's for Mal to decide. If he says there's no issue with it as it is, there's no reason...

Especially since Xeko seems to be the only one upset about him.
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Maxxxxxy



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PostSubject: Re: Exp/Gil Related Abilities   Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:24 am

That is purely one example. XIV grants you access to any class just by changing your weapon and armor. V allowed you to change your "job". III you can change jobs.

Though in XIII I do not remember the other classes being vastly more expensive. Certainly not five times more expensive. In some games you can simply change a characters weapon to  change their class. You seem to see some HUGE discount. But I see a limit. Its like trying to create a character in Fable that is both skilled at magic, guns, and swordplay. It will take FOREVER for your character to be good at anything, let alone EVERYTHING. Where as when you specialize in something you are able to put your all into that and excel at that one field.

Yes Xeko, you did say that. But that is not the line I was directly quoting from you.


Last edited by Maxxxxxy on Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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Squall Leonhart

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PostSubject: Re: Exp/Gil Related Abilities   Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:29 am

Yeah, I don't know if 5 times as expensive, but they where considerably harder to increase than the set 3. I think Maxxy, that that's sort of what Xeko is saying. By having different "characters" he can be as good as a mage than as a warrior (for example) by spending considerably less experience and gil that someone else would have to be the "same" kind of character.

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Character Stats
Class(s): Human/Knight   Level: 10
::=:: HP 1,825  ::=:: Strength: 1600 (+800 Weapon Damage) ::=:: MP 1,250 ::=:: Defense: 500 ::=:: Magic 500  ::=:: Speed:900 ::=:: Magic Defense 800 (+200 Magic Defense)
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Maxxxxxy



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PostSubject: Re: Exp/Gil Related Abilities   Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:32 am

((Edited my above post a little but you had posted before I was done.))

I don't really understand what you are saying Squall. As per "character" he would need to expend just as much as everyone else would with a single 'character'.
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Matt Eria

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PostSubject: Re: Exp/Gil Related Abilities   Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:36 am

My only objection is that he DOES have to spend as much as the next character to get good at something.

If I want to get good at Mage, it will cost me the same amount as another mage.
I just have the option of 'Changing my Job' - to change over to Warrior. So looking at it in that frame, here is an example:

I dump 10k gil in to my "Mage" sphere, and an opposing mage dumps 10k in his. The difference is, for 500 more gil, I can buy a 'Warrior' sphere move, while a standard mage doesn't have that option.

I spend a turn class changing to Warrior.

And now I'm playing a Warrior with 500gil dumped in to him, versus a mage that has 10k gil dumped in to him. THAT is what I'm getting at. Even if I did it evenly across the board ( which I can't - right now I only have the 3 spheres ) I STILL will only be as good as an equivalent character of that gil / level.

If anything, the ONLY real benefit I get? Is that my level stats transfer from one to another. Matt is level 3, so he's a level 3 warrior, level 3 white mage, and level 3 black mage.

Just not all at the same time.

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Squall Leonhart

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PostSubject: Re: Exp/Gil Related Abilities   Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:44 am

Yeah, my bad, I kind of started getting lost here @_@. It's as if you are merging 9 characters into one, that's the best description I could find.

And Xeko, you would be right about the discounts IF he could use all of those abilities at the same time. As it stands, it certainly is as if he were playing different characters. My only suggestion would be to make it a bit hard for him to get any other spheres (not impossible, just long, awesome quests)

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Character Stats
Class(s): Human/Knight   Level: 10
::=:: HP 1,825  ::=:: Strength: 1600 (+800 Weapon Damage) ::=:: MP 1,250 ::=:: Defense: 500 ::=:: Magic 500  ::=:: Speed:900 ::=:: Magic Defense 800 (+200 Magic Defense)
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Lorenzo



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PostSubject: Re: Exp/Gil Related Abilities   Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:57 am

For the record, the difference in cost from the original 3 classes, and the other classes in FFXIII is MASSIVE, much MORE than 5x.  Stage 1 Crystarium for Lightning in her Commando role is 60 points per skill boost, Stage 1 Crystarium for Lightning in her Sentinel role is 3000 points per skill boost.

But, off topic, yes Squall is exactly right.  It costs much much much less for Matt to become good at everything than it costs for any other character to become good at everything.  Also, Maxxxy, you claim that you don't see it as a big amount, that I am wrong, but numbers don't lie.  Essentially, so long as he keeps getting dress spheres, he will be paying a miniscule fraction of what other players would pay.  

And Squall, it really doesn't matter if he can only use one group of abilities at a time, fact remains all of the abilities are still his. I don't care the draw backs of the ability, I don't care the situation, having any ability that grants easier or early access to other abilities is a no-no.  Nothing is worth a permanent 90% discount for new abilities. And I don't even see why the drawbacks on his junction thing are even necessary. Ven says he deserves the discount because it takes a full turn to swap, but WHY does it take a full turn to swap? That makes no sense. In fact, I can see him going a different route and doing it similar to Vaan in Dissidia, removing the delay, and gaining bonus effects to the abilities immediately after swapping, which would encourage fast and frequent swapping. He's using the drawbacks of the ability as justification for this massive discount, but really, the drawbacks aren't even necessary to begin with. He's choosing to hold his own character back. Why should that be rewarded with an amazing trade-off?
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Matt Eria

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PostSubject: Re: Exp/Gil Related Abilities   Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:04 am

Why does it take a full turn to swap: One action to get 'undressed' ( to lose his current memory ) and one action to get 'redressed'. ( Gain his current memory. ) That's the IC justification. After all, there's no IC justification for the monsters to just stand there while the girls change in FFX-2 ( aside from possible sexiness... idk xD ) but I look at it more logically.

You can see me doing NOTHING. Because YOU are not ME. You can kindly take whatever ideas you see me doing and put them away, because, again, YOU are not ME. Yeah, in the future I may give him a transformation thing. But I will never, under any circumstances, get rid of his swap drawback. I'm making a character that relies more on strategy - taking the strategy out of it is pointless.

You've made your point, and added NOTHING to it other than saying "it's a no-no." Says you. Not anyone else. This is an opinion zone, not anything else - yours is one view, and so far, everyone BUT you is okay with it.

You never answered my question. If I had 9 characters in the same thread, and just played them that way, explain to me why it's any different - other than the fact that I get 18 actions instead of 2 per turn?
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Lorenzo



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PostSubject: Re: Exp/Gil Related Abilities   Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:10 am

That would actually be fine, assuming you can keep up with all the posts. Because it would also mean you'd be leveling up 1/9th as fast. Also, you might want to re-read squall's posts if you think I'm the only one who thinks there's something wrong here.
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Maxxxxxy



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PostSubject: Re: Exp/Gil Related Abilities   Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:15 am

You keep repeating the word discount but all I'm seeing is it costing more for him than anyone else. If anything he is injuring himself, not trying to cheat the system. Ven stated it best in his last post. If he was given the same amount of Gil to expend on what you might consider a "Maxed out" character. None of his multiple classes would be anywhere near as powerful as another players single class. The more spheres he invests in the less power he has in comparison. This in now way provides a discount.
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Matt Eria

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PostSubject: Re: Exp/Gil Related Abilities   Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:16 am

Squall Leonhart wrote:
Yeah, my bad, I kind of started getting lost here @_@. It's as if you are merging 9 characters into one, that's the best description I could find.

And Xeko, you would be right about the discounts IF he could use all of those abilities at the same time. As it stands, it certainly is as if he were playing different characters. My only suggestion would be to make it a bit hard for him to get any other spheres (not impossible, just long, awesome quests)
Mhm.

I wouldn't be leveling 1/9th as fast, because they'd -all be in the same thread.- In fact, my WC's would probably be higher, since I'd have more fluff to throw in each post.

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Lorenzo



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PostSubject: Re: Exp/Gil Related Abilities   Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:19 am

Squall Leonhart wrote:
As I understand it, it's certainly quite versatile. I wouldn't say it's OP or broken, because the wind up time for it to be so is quiet hefty, but even like that it is a bit too much in my opinion. I wouldn't mind if as Ven said, it costed him some EXP as well to upgrade or buy the CA's, or there was an increasing cost depending on X or Y.
You're not the only one who knows how to use quotes.
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Maxxxxxy



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PostSubject: Re: Exp/Gil Related Abilities   Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:38 am

That was silly Xeko...his opinion clearly changed.
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Lorenzo



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PostSubject: Re: Exp/Gil Related Abilities   Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:44 am

Mine hasn't. Doesn't matter when he can use his abilities and when he can't, the fact remains they all still belong to him. And he shouldn't get the second ability price if it's really his ninth ability. If he is insistent on using this particular system for the dress spheres, then he can have some other trade off. But nothing is worth what comes out to be an absolutely massive discount.
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Matt Eria

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PostSubject: Re: Exp/Gil Related Abilities   Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:45 am

YOU do not get to make that call, Xeko. Stop acting like you do.

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Lorenzo



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PostSubject: Re: Exp/Gil Related Abilities   Fri Nov 15, 2013 3:10 am

I don't need to make the call. It's a pre-existing call. Something that's already been made.
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