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Lorenzo



Male Posts : 75

PostSubject: Weapon/Damage Output   Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:10 am

I have jokingly mentioned in the chat a few times that more or less any character can one-turn kill any one other character. But, the more I look it over, the more it seems that that is actually true. With the exception of characters with auto-life or auto-dodge abilities. So, we have to ask, why is that? And, after thinking it over, I came to the conclusion that it's because... well, you can read the title of the thread, it's because of the weapon system. Now, there's a few issues with the current weapon system, and there are dozens of ways that it might be tweaked to fix it... but these are the two I think would work best.

First option: I wrote the weapon system originally, and when I wrote it, I wrote it with stat boosts in mind. Not overall damage boosts. Mal changed it at some point along the line, because the bonuses were so small. In fact, if you look at some of the older bios (Rena's for example), her weapon still gives stat boosts, not damage boosts. Basically instead of +200 Physical damage, it'd be +200 Strength. which, of course, means 1/10th as effective as the current system. Now, I will be the first to admit, though, that mal was absolutely right when he changed the system. This solution would actually render weapon upgrades insignificant when compared to abilities or leveling up. We may need to tweak the costs of weapon upgrades, or maybe the amount of stat points given per weapon level, to compensate for that. And that might be a fair bit of work.

Second option: Currently, the weapons' damage bonuses stack with each other. 75 at level 1 + 100 at level 2 + 150 at level 3 and so on... This means by the time we have a level 10 weapon you're looking at a damage boost of 2500, roughly. This means that a regular physical attack with your weapon would do more damage than a powerful level 3 CA without your weapon. So, this idea is simple... remove the stacking quality of the weapon bonuses. At level 1 its 75, at level 2 its 100 at level 3 its 150, at level 10 its 500. And just leave it at that. It would reduce the damage output significantly, but still provide a big enough bonus that people would still want to buy them, it's a great solution. There is one major problem with this idea, though. Weapon abilities, as they are written now, would not work. We'd have to remove the idea of weapon abilities entirely, if we remove the stack aspect of the weapon levels.

Third option : Yeah, I said there were only two options, but I thought of this one while I was typing and I'm too lazy to go back up the page and change it. Anyway... third option... don't do anything. Sure, the weapons give massive damage boosts, but look at the costs of a weapon upgrade. 1000, 3000, 5000, 8000, and so on. To get a level 10 weapon you'd have to spend nearly 300k on it. Sure, anyone can get a level 1 or 2 weapon no problem, but the weapon costs go up big time from there, and some people might not want to spend the gil on it, when they could be spending gil on abilities and spells. So, this solution basically is de-level some of the stronger weapons, like Asher's, Lorenzo's, and Squall's, and then just have mal NOT give away weapon upgrades for quest rewards anymore. And that might be enough to solve the problem.


So, thoughts? Like I said, there are really dozens of ways we could fix this system, so I'm sure you all have your own systems in mind.
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Maxxxxxy



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PostSubject: Re: Weapon/Damage Output   Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:23 am

I'll take whats behind door #3. But only the half where we actually did nothing, not the half where nothing changed to changing things which was actually something instead of doing nothing.

Everyone can basically one turn kill everyone else because everyone is so close in level. When level differences increase the level of one hitting lessens. Asher, being higher level than everyone else, can not so easily be one hit KOed by pretty much anyone. Where as Zolanius could not one hit anyone but could be one hit by anyone.

Basically the system for weapons is fine as it is. Your biggest concern seems to be damage but the buffs do not need to go into damage dealing. The boosts can go into any stat. Someone like Shadow, before the new site since he doesn't fit well now, would have likely put his weapon all into speed. I pretty much only put stats into strength so clearly all of mine will go into strength. There isn't a problem with this, we chose characters who specialize. Not everyone needs to dedicate the allotted boosts to doing damage.

You seem to have some kind of concern with potential PvP but, as you know, there hasn't been any since JE1.

((Participating cause nothing better to do right now.))
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Lorenzo



Male Posts : 75

PostSubject: Re: Weapon/Damage Output   Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:34 am

First, maxxy, not supposed to be posting here. Second, your use of Shadow as an example proves that you don't really know how the current weapon system works. Shadow in particular uses his speed stat instead of his strength stat. Okay, so it'd make sense that he'd want to boost his speed as much as possible. But NOT when the option to boost direct damage is available. Considered which is better a 200 point boost to speed (resulting in 20 points extra damage) or a 200 point boost to damage dealt. Also, no, putting the boosts into the stats is not supposed to be possible. The characters that have weapons that boost their stats are remnants from a time when we did do that. Now, all weapons boost damage directly. Which is exactly what we're discussing. I think you might want to re-do your math, too. Because it's not a matter of opinion, so much. We know for a fact that without certain character's weapons, they would not do nearly as much damage.

In short, I don't think you know what you're talking about (with the weapons, at least), and you're not supposed to be posting here anyway.
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Asher Gheri

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PostSubject: Re: Weapon/Damage Output   Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:45 am

Basic attacks should not be rendered impotent. That's all. The game isn't about matching CAs against each other - a basic attack should be a viable option. In no realm of thought is a fully upgraded weapon only giving 500 damage any sort of... anything.

Now, I agree that weapons giving as much as they do now is silly. But at the same time, treating them as insignificant isn't the way to go either. That's why "ultima weapons" exist in the first place.

That being said, right now weapons outshine levels in terms of ACTUAL upgrades. How do we fix this? I dunno. But I do know that people who like to play bruisers and attack-based characters shouldn't be punished for that decision. What about "Ultima" weapons, etc?

Basically: We need to make weapons worth having, or not at all. But there needs to be a balance between weapons, CAs, and levels.

Idk.

Also: Let Maxxy be, if she wants to contribute, there's no reason for her not to. She can think of something we don't.

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Character Sheet
Stats
:¤:  HP: 2,150  :¤:  Strength: 1100 ( 775 ) :¤: MP: 1100 :¤: Defense: 800 :¤: Magic: 500 :¤: Speed: 1150 :¤: Magic Defense: 500

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Maxxxxxy



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PostSubject: Re: Weapon/Damage Output   Thu Nov 14, 2013 4:01 am

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Lorenzo



Male Posts : 75

PostSubject: Re: Weapon/Damage Output   Thu Nov 14, 2013 4:07 am

I kinda think removing the stacking effect is the best route.  Keep in mind, weapon bonuses are in ADDITION to CA's.  A character with a level 10 weapon should be level 40 (its a requirement, even) meaning roughly 5000-6000 STR (obviously that can vary greatly based on character customization).  So, 500 damage from str, and 500 damage from the weapon.  Plus 1000-2000 damage from lvl 3 CA's.  Sooooo, 1000 for normal attacks, 2000-3000 for CA's.  To me, that seems like a perfect balance.  I don't know if you'd agree, but I sorta think that works out really well.
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MAL
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PostSubject: Re: Weapon/Damage Output   Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:53 am

Actually Xeko you'd be wrong there, I introduced stacking because as Maxxxxy did say weapon output isn't supposed to always be pure damage.

The way I figured it was that you'd have a weapon that can pour a modifer into any calculation, Attack, Guard. Even HP or MP.  I did this so that people could play with their numbers and fit their weapon into a method of play that they thought would fit their character. Say for example you have a person who has +800 atk on their weapon. That's it, pure damage boost. Then their opponent who has a +300atk, +500guard. In a basic attack calculation if the opponent guards then the majority of the damage is removed, now sure you may have CA's etc that can boost damage. But in the end your problem then isn't the weapon boost, its the CA. Shadow probably isn't a good example due to his speed dmg CA, but I'll give you a better one. No Name (yes >> my char).

No Name's weapon is split between Damage and Guard, both reflecting methods of play that I can go with him. If I choose to tank the battle I can remove 75dmg + 10/Defense with him. When I do that I earn 1 positive karma which boosts the weapons modifer by a temp +50. I continue earning karma and I'll keep getting the +50, in addition to haste and protect status. Effectively turning him into a tank. After say 2 rounds (or 6 turns under haste) he should have built up 300+75, and when combined with protect can effectively absorb most damage thrown at him or others. Now I understand you are talking about weapons, but you did mention the CA damage modifer and in a sense No Name's ability to raise his guard stat constantly is effectively an opposite example of this. So what I'm saying is: If people were not so much concerned about dishing out as much damage as is humanly possible, they would not be as flimsy as paper.

I'll be honest, with this change I didn't really much care about PVP. Because I'd like to think that unlike JE1 this place has become less of a compare your dick size contest between players. But I understand that PVP has to be taken into account.

So, a counter solution I suggest would be rather than removing the stack and crippling PVE ( cause god knows you'd all be fucked if you faced Necron without the stack). That a limitation be placed on just how much you can spend into one modifer at once.
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Squall Leonhart

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Level : 10
Male Posts : 68

PostSubject: Re: Weapon/Damage Output   Thu Nov 14, 2013 11:31 am

I agree with Mal in here, most of the problems you point out in Weapon Damage are aimed towards a PvP side of things, which in JE2 and JE3 has NEVER, ever happened. Not onces. The site, in my opinion, is designed more towards PvE side of things and, if PvP ever happens, it will probably be much, much later in the way of things when everyone would have so many different upgrades/cas/levels that would probably not one shot anyone anymore.

It does seems it would be punishing characters who are pure damage, I'll take myself as an example. Squall is a VERY straightforward character, he's nothing but raw damage because that's how I wanted him to be. If you change the system, ignoring my CA, tell me what's the signature of my character? Doing 240 HP damage per basic attack (going back to the old system thing, or even non-stackable) does not comes off as a raw power character, it's not even distinguished enough from what others more utility based characters could do.

Again, this system allows people to actually specialize in something and be GOOD at it. Take another look at Arianna, she's going the Hybrid way and both, her Physical and Magical attacks are receiving boosts and making her dangerous both ways, so she can specialize.

I like Mal's solution, but I would not say go 50/50 on the limits, something more like 70/30 would work perfectly into helping characters specialize the way they want.

_________________


Character Stats
Class(s): Human/Knight   Level: 10
::=:: HP 1,825  ::=:: Strength: 1600 (+800 Weapon Damage) ::=:: MP 1,250 ::=:: Defense: 500 ::=:: Magic 500  ::=:: Speed:900 ::=:: Magic Defense 800 (+200 Magic Defense)
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Lorenzo



Male Posts : 75

PostSubject: Re: Weapon/Damage Output   Thu Nov 14, 2013 6:43 pm

The entire issue stemmed from a discussion I had with Ven, wherein, he mentioned that weapons were overshadowing both stats and combat abilities. Why bother leveling up, and getting 20 damage boost, when you can level up the weapon and get 200 damage boost. Of course, weapons are leveled up with gil, and levels are gained through exp, so that question doesn't really work, but the point stands. You take away any one of our weapons, and we're doing minimal damage. I realize that weapons are a big part of the FF games, but if you equip the buster sword on an end-game Cloud, and he's still going to do 4000+ damage. But, compare Lorenzo's weapon to his regular damage without the weapon, or Asher's, or DEFINITELY Squall's, and they're all disproportional to the character's stats. Although, as Asher pointed out to me last night, perhaps that's not a problem with the weapons, perhaps that's a problem with how the effectively the stats convert into actual damage.
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Squall Leonhart

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PostSubject: Re: Weapon/Damage Output   Thu Nov 14, 2013 8:12 pm

Probably with the stats converting to damage. I still think the Weapon Damage is fine as is, as it's nothing but a modifier of abilities. There really isn't anything broken with that. I will agree on one thing though, put Level Limits on Weapons. I don't know, for a Level 5 Weapon you need to be Level 10, for a Level 10 Weapon, you have to be 15, something like that. That way, you limit the damage output of low level characters without hurting the niche picks of the players.

_________________


Character Stats
Class(s): Human/Knight   Level: 10
::=:: HP 1,825  ::=:: Strength: 1600 (+800 Weapon Damage) ::=:: MP 1,250 ::=:: Defense: 500 ::=:: Magic 500  ::=:: Speed:900 ::=:: Magic Defense 800 (+200 Magic Defense)
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Lorenzo



Male Posts : 75

PostSubject: Re: Weapon/Damage Output   Thu Nov 14, 2013 8:22 pm

Well, put MORE level limits on weapons. We already have some. A level 6 weapon needs level 20, and a level 10 weapon needs level 40. I say a level 3 weapon would need a level lock too. Say we did 20, 40, 60. Or perhaps 15, 30, 50.
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Squall Leonhart

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Level : 10
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PostSubject: Re: Weapon/Damage Output   Thu Nov 14, 2013 8:26 pm

That doesn't really sounds bad, Level Limit on Weapons would certainly work.

_________________


Character Stats
Class(s): Human/Knight   Level: 10
::=:: HP 1,825  ::=:: Strength: 1600 (+800 Weapon Damage) ::=:: MP 1,250 ::=:: Defense: 500 ::=:: Magic 500  ::=:: Speed:900 ::=:: Magic Defense 800 (+200 Magic Defense)
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Celt Amuruaien



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PostSubject: Re: Weapon/Damage Output   Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:03 pm

Mal switched the system to be more reminiscent of the old system on 2k3. While I agree that regular attacks shouldn't be negligible I do agree that we need some kind of level-lock in place for some of the lower level weapons to prevent low-level characters from having an insane damage output. Especially considering the fact that it's much easier to get a weapon with a 2,000+ attack modifier than it was on 2k3.

I'd like to also suggest having to pay to have the level locks removed once the character reaches the correct level to create a level 3 weapon. So, let's say we do put a level lock of, I don't know. Level 15 before a character is able to upgrade their weapon from level 2 to level 3, they get to level 15 but have to pay an additional cost to remove the lock before they're able to upgrade their weapon.

I'd suggest having the pricing for that be roughly the cost of the last level + an additional 50%. Seems to me like that would be the best way to keep weapon growth steady.
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Zolanius Thyre



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Male Posts : 51

PostSubject: Re: Weapon/Damage Output   Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:15 pm

I think that is far to severe of a limitation. Level lock is already a prtty big limiter. Especially 15 for a lv3.
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Celt Amuruaien



Posts : 12

PostSubject: Re: Weapon/Damage Output   Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:18 pm

The level lock of 15 for a level 3 weapon was a hypothetical. Ultimately I'm not speaking with authority, just putting forward some potential suggestions.
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