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Lorenzo



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PostSubject: Teleportation/Auto-complete Tasks   Thu Nov 14, 2013 12:23 am

Okay, I will keep this short. I see teleportation as an issue, simply because of the potential for abuse of the ability. The best example would be Rena, in the event. The allied forces were divided into two parties, and party 1 was given the task of planting the bomb onto a meteor, while avoiding guards and being stealthy. Considering the parameters given, it can be assumed the task was intended to be an actual challenge for the characters. Yet, rift skip in, plant bomb, rift skip out, and it's done. I understand a good portion of the thread Rena has maintained the "not giving a fuck" attitude, and that's fine, but to considering that planting the bomb was essentially the entire mission the characters were originally hired for, and the whole purpose for the characters to be in the thread to begin with, it seemed like the goal was accomplished FAR too easily. Asher has used his teleports a lot more tastefully, but even he has used them to bypass some of the parameters of the DM posts. If we, as a group, are supposed to sneak into an area, it feels unfair if one character can just jump in, and everyone else has to work on their stealth.

For the record, I am completely fine with teleporting inside of combat as a method of dodging, so long as it's limited (and that is something we can discuss more in a thread about OP characters and abilities). But, as an out-of-combat plot device, I feel teleporting should be DRASTICALLY limited, or even removed all together. I am clearly not the only one who thinks so, as Mal made it a point to mention that the boss of the event thread was brought on by an excess amount of teleporting. I just feel that if a DM gives us a task to complete, we shouldn't be allowed to take short cuts. And teleporting seems to be nothing but out-of-task free cards.

So, fellow councilmen, thoughts? What should we do about this teleporting/skipping DM instructions thing? Or, do you disagree with me and feel that it isn't a problem at all?
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Squall Leonhart

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PostSubject: Re: Teleportation/Auto-complete Tasks   Thu Nov 14, 2013 12:31 am

I kind of agree with you, I do not think removing it is the answer, since I always hate to limit people/characters on what they can do and the creative they can use, but (even though it will sound redundant) I do think there needs to be some restrictions, I don't know, maybe requiring A WHOLE LOT of concentration before teleporting, or only being able to do so when either you KNOW the place or there's someone you know there.

And yeah, I do not think Mal liked the use of Teleport on the event either lol XD.

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Asher Gheri

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PostSubject: Re: Teleportation/Auto-complete Tasks   Thu Nov 14, 2013 12:46 am

Alllllllrightythen.

I give Asher’s teleporting limits for a reason. I recognize that teleportation as a mechanic can be considered awkward, but it also can’t be denied that it’s in game. It has been in game for literal years now. It was never “broken” before, from an out of character perspective, and from an in-character perspective, it is a fairly limited ability. In the entirety of JE, only two characters can truly teleport – Asher and Rena. Belzera could open portals, which had a different set of useful implications and limitations, as well.

In your example, you mention Rena using her ability to hop in and out of what might otherwise be a ‘dangerous’ situation, or a situation that requires stealth. That alone is not reason enough to do anything. Otherwise, why not limit the use of magic all together? Can’t cast Sleep / Sleepga on a group of guards to do that.

Can’t cast Stop / stopgap on them, either.

I’m biased, I suppose, because I play one of the only two characters with teleportation abilities. But there were in game consequences for the way they went about doing things. That’s how something like that should be settled.

Here’s my issue with your suggestion: You’re taking away the decision at the table.

ALL games should be played out on the table, especially once the game has already started. We’ve established the rules, and so long as we’re playing within the rules, there’s very little reason to operate under a different circumstance.

If you want a boss fight / area task / etc. to be not immediately solved by a certain thing, assess the characters in question.

Set up a magic-dampening field to prevent people from casting Sleep / Stop on your guards. Create a device that forces the dimensions to stay ‘locked’ in a specific area. In the Meteor situation – the Meteor could have been exuding so much Sorceress power that neither Asher nor Rena could approach in that manner.

If I don’t want Lorenzo to be able to draw from a character, in a DM sense, I make it so Lorenzo cannot Draw, for whatever in-game reason I can come up with. No one should make an out of character “ruling” or “judgment” about how abilities can or cannot be used, especially considering the ramifications of that. What’s changed? Why can a character that crosses dimensions at will not be able to do so anymore? How does that affect the CAs?

No. That’s asking too much.

Set up a resolution in-game. Not only does that fix the problem, but it forces character growth, too. What would happen if Asher and Rena had to go in to the Meteor area WITHOUT the fallback of their usual escape plans? A lot of their perceived safety is in the fact that they can get out of bad situations instantly.

Take that away, you’ve got some interesting things to play with. You’re thinking like a player, not like a storyteller, and that’s where you’re stumbling. Remember that this is a giant story.

You should read this, Xeko. It’s for table top RPGs, but the advice is bread and butter for any kind of storytelling scenario.

http://lookrobot.co.uk/2013/06/20/11-ways-to-be-a-better-roleplayer/

( TO BE CLEAR: This is NOT a dig at you to be a better roleplayer. One of my GMs gave it to me as advice for being a better STORYTELLER. )

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Squall Leonhart

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PostSubject: Re: Teleportation/Auto-complete Tasks   Thu Nov 14, 2013 12:50 am

After reading Ven's response, I think he's got it quite right. As a DM, Mal (and now myself) have the power to work around whatever seems "broken" if we deem it necessary. That's usually the way I approach my D&D players whenever I would DM a game, they could use any kind of book, any kind of class/spell/etc. they could find on the books and, if I seemed they were too powerful for certain situations, I worked around it.

I mean, I understand both points of view, since in the current thread it did seem like a "sucky" way to work around a task at hand, but Ven is right on that the tools are on the DM to prevent OR punish those actions.

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::=:: HP 1,825  ::=:: Strength: 1600 (+800 Weapon Damage) ::=:: MP 1,250 ::=:: Defense: 500 ::=:: Magic 500  ::=:: Speed:900 ::=:: Magic Defense 800 (+200 Magic Defense)
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Lorenzo



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PostSubject: Re: Teleportation/Auto-complete Tasks   Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:05 am

But, see, that's part of the issue.  Rift skipping and teleporting don't have limits, aside from character's line of sight.  No MP cost, no concentration required, no nothing.  Both of you, all of you, really, as Belzera's portals would fall under the same category, act as though the abilities are instantaneous and effortless.  It's not that you can teleport, it's that your teleports are impossibly versatile.  With every DM given situation, there's usually a variety of ways to go about solving the problem.  Sleep or stop would NOT help, in this example, as they are both temporary statuses, and you can bet once the guards wake up/return to normal, they'll know something is up.  But, that's picking apart one specific example

Also, using "it's been a part of the game for a while" as an excuse doesn't fit.  This is a new gaia, and it may or may not have new rules.  Asher, Rena, Lorenzo, Celt, have all lost several abilities.  Not just because of power issues, but because of changes to the game itself.  You can't act like "well this is established, so it is therefore set in stone", because it's not.

Adding specific traits to the DM posts, to prevent certain characters from solving the puzzles in certain ways might work for most abilities, but I don't think that's an option with teleportation.  To use your example, mal could make a boss that Lorenzo can't draw from, or, as he has actually done in this thread, a boss that cannot be killed by Odin.  Those are certainly possibilities.  But the problem with that is, with Lorenzo as an example, Mal only needs to adjust the DM parameters once in a long while.  Major bosses he doesn't want Lorenzo instantly bypassing.  But, in the case of teleporting, he would have to do that FOR LITERALLY EVERY SINGLE SITUATION.  How often do you think the DMs can use the magic-blocking field excuse before it gets old?  But, without it, teleportation can solve virtually every problem mal could throw at us.  It's not about nitpicking one ability, it's about one ability being FAR too versatile in an out of combat situation.

It's one thing to modify one certain situation to prevent the use of one certain ability... but with teleportation in particular, I feel like the DMs would have to do that with every single obstacle they provide, since teleportation can solve ANY problem.
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Squall Leonhart

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PostSubject: Re: Teleportation/Auto-complete Tasks   Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:11 am

I see were you are coming from Xeko, but I think you are underselling a DM's ability to adjust to situations. A magic field that prevents Teleportation is just ONE of the many, many issues a DM can throw at you to punish/prevent you from using it.

What about a "teleportation alarm" We do live in a magical word, and just as with a real world, a DM could say that, by teleporting, it triggered an alarm that rendered magic useless. Or, how about this, by trying to teleport, you open a rift into another dimension bringing with you different monsters? Now, you are not preventing the teleport, but punishing it greatly, since now you are fighting, by yourself, against something caused by your Teleport.

There are an impossible number of ways a DM can play around this, which allows for character/story growth without removing or limiting a person's ability to roleplay. Smile

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::=:: HP 1,825  ::=:: Strength: 1600 (+800 Weapon Damage) ::=:: MP 1,250 ::=:: Defense: 500 ::=:: Magic 500  ::=:: Speed:900 ::=:: Magic Defense 800 (+200 Magic Defense)
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Asher Gheri

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PostSubject: Re: Teleportation/Auto-complete Tasks   Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:23 am

Really? Then perhaps you not being a DM is a good thing. A DM DOES have to take into account the character(s) that they're DMing for. You're right, those resolutions are temporary, and given for their specific thing.

Side note: Sleep or Stop would work. Sleep is in effect until someone fixes it. After the job is done and the characters are out? Who gives half a damn if they wake up and 'know something's up?' Stop them long enough to drop off the bomb and leave. Tada. Situation resolved. Hell, we've used Stop to cancel out player stupidity in Pages, because actions have consequences.

But some jobs SHOULD be solvable by teleportation. Are you insinuating that teleportation, as a mechanic, should NEVER be a key to fixing a problem? No. That's wrong. Just because YOUR character ( generic your, I don't mean lorenzo ) can't teleport doesn't mean it can't be a viable solution. Just the same as a character not possessing the ability to speak Al Bhed NEEDING that skill to get out of a bad situation involving the Al Bhed. Take that into account.

Ever read the Jumper books? The "Knight" group would set up motion sensor bombs in locations, that were deactivated by opening the door. A "Jumper" teleports in? They -die.- That's a pretty harsh response to a teleporting character, but the notion still stands.

You don't think it's an option with Teleporting because you're not thinking like a DM. You're thinking like a player. Get out of the OOC mindset, and dive in to the fact that this is a story that's being told. Would it have been more exciting to 'sneak in' ( which, honestly, in this medium? Can be done EXACTLY THE SAME AS TELEPORTING... just by saying you're quiet enough. The DM would have to react to your characters sneaking, the same as a DM would have to react to a teleporting character. )

Man, wouldn't it suck if Rena had Riftskipped to the meteor and then been TRAPPED there because the dimensional walls got jacked up in that spot? Or worse, provided a way for the Sorceress to get OUT of the meteor?

@the "it's worked before" argument. Considering they both have teleported a bunch in this thread? Asher's teleported a bunch in other threads? Clearly it's something they're capable of. Limiting things by sight is a pretty -big- thing. Being forced to bring anything you're touching with you is also a pretty big thing. No, there's no charge-up for Asher to teleport, because it's designed to be an instant effect. (There is an MP cost, but it's negligible, so I'll concede that effect to you. ) I wrote it that way, so of course I treat it that way.

You say it's okay to use in combat - but not out of it. Where's the justification for that? Why is it suddenly they have the full range of their abilities in a fight, whereas out of it, they're powerless again?

Teleportation doesn't solve EVERY problem. Quit being overdramatic. You're targeting characters intentionally for a mechanic YOU can't think to work around. Not really our fault. Ruien found a way around it, when we were on JE1. So did I, for Eriol, though I didn't get that far with him. Mal found a way to punish us for its use by summoning a big-ass boss.

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Lorenzo



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PostSubject: Re: Teleportation/Auto-complete Tasks   Thu Nov 14, 2013 1:36 am

Again, though, its not about the admin's ability to adjust, it's about how often they'd be required to do it.  Every single situation would require SOME sort of anti-teleport stipulation.  Fact remains, teleporting is too versatile a mechanic. Rena has no such limitations on her teleporting, and honestly, taking anything you're in contact with with you is often more a benefit than a curse. Sure, there are millions of ways that a DM can stop it. By why should they have to? It's not that teleporting is bad, in and of itself, it's that teleporting comes with far too much opportunity for abuse. If the cost of teleporting was 100 mp, instead of 10, that'd be different. But it's not, it's essentially free. Even a limit by sight isn't as much of a limit as I would like, as you said yourself in the chat, you can see the sun. We discussed several possibilities in the chat, why not teleport the meteor into space, why not teleport the bomb into the sun, why not teleport this, why not teleport that. And, honestly, we never came up with a reason for why not. The only reason Asher or Rena didn't send the entire meteor skyward is because we felt it would ruin the plot. Yet, that didn't stop Rena from bypassing an entire army of guards. And what if a newer member decides to make a teleport ability, and they don't have as firm a grasp on the story? If they were put in the same situation, what if they DID teleport the thing into space? Then what? Yes, DM's should be ready for anything, but there are some things that you just don't prepare for. I would imagine the ending of this thread would be a lot less enjoyable if that were the case.
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Asher Gheri

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PostSubject: Re: Teleportation/Auto-complete Tasks   Thu Nov 14, 2013 2:32 am

A) Asher's inability to teleport things he has contact with is why he couldn't teleport the bomb. The meteor was too big to do it, and the bomb was attached to the meteor. Tie him to a pillar, and he can't teleport out. Case in point.

B) Why should a DM have to... what, orchestrate a scene that is both fun and challenging for all the players involved, by taking in to account their character's capabilities? Probably because they signed up to do that. If they don't want to do that, they're probably not gonna DM. Mal doesn't have that problem - he's an incredible storyteller.

C) 100mp or 10, you would not be happy, because it would STILL do the same thing it does, and that's the problem for you. Not the cost.

D) You know why? Because Asher couldn't - it was too big, and Rena probably COULD pull it off, but that's on the same magnitude of power that was required of her to bring the Airship across dimensions. If she's capable of one, she SHOULD be capable of the other. If Mal deems it something she wouldn't be capable of ( because of the fact that the thing was dug into the ground, so she couldn't get the whole thing through one of her rifts in the first place ) then he has effectively countered it with an in-game reason. He didn't just say "this is too hard, Rena, you can't do it." You may have missed the reason.

E) I was being facetious when I said that 'I CAN SEE THE SUN!!!1!!' No one is going to willingly teleport themselves into the sun. 'Line of Sight' is a generalization, so you have an idea of his radius. If it would make you feel better, I will write down a specific Km distance for you. No, he could not teleport something into space - not if he expected to survive the situation.

F) Rena used a skill of hers? Darn. Again, what if someone had tagged the group with Sleep? What if we'd punched Asher in the dick a bunch of times so he could Trance and blow up the army? What if we had a giant flaming monster running around torching tents so that the guards at the Meteor would not be looking at the meteor when people teleported in?

G) The newer player would get stopped. Again, Mal had a way of preventing it. He DID prevent it. 'Some things that you just don't prepare for?' A good DM can fly by the seat of their pants and make a great story. Mal is one of those types of DMs. You're right, that would have been a sucky conclusion - so Mal would have had an in-game reason for it not to work.


--

The fact remains, teleporting is no more troublesome than any other mechanic. I recognize it's a power-crutch, don't get me wrong. But it's a power-crutch that is well within the rules of the game.

Yes, teleportation is a versatile mechanic. It's not OP. It's not the key to the kingdom. Didn't you mention in the chat that you wanted to give Lorenzo a teleport?

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MAL
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PostSubject: Re: Teleportation/Auto-complete Tasks   Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:13 am

My 2 Cents on this:
You are given a task, if its in you ability to complete this task easily using the powers in your skill set. All power to you. Take note however that constant abuse of this power is likely to wear thin and encourage the DM (ie) Me. To begin imposing problems to using this as a solution.

So in short. I don't see teleport as a problem, and if I see it getting out of hand I'll deal with it in thread on a case by case basis. ie) See Angel Fall and fabric reality tear.
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